Re: domain name list

From: Brad Jensen <brad_at_elstore.com>
Date: Fri 04 Aug 2000 16:22:59 -0500

BRAD JENSEN <brad_at_elstore.com> WROTE:
> Pay for an opt-in list and suddenly you are a saint?
 
JIM REARDON <jim_at_amusive.com> WROTE:
> No, but by not shifting the cost of your advertisements
> onto the consumer, you are.
>
> I've posted here before, and I'll say it again. I
> spend over $300 a month to receive messages from
> people just like you. That is unethical, and I'm
> sorry if you see it any other way, but I don't see how
> you can.

You are saying that if you did not receive unsolicited
email, you would reduce your server bandwidth and save
$300 a month? You'd probabaly also make you mailbox
smaller if you didn't get so much junk mail.

JIM REARDON <jim_at_amusive.com> WROTE:
> I've also lost a few thousand dollars because a certain
> company (that I would have expected better from, too)
> decided to send an email to practically any prefix at
> my free email service's domain.

Sure, and I lost thousands of dollars because we were
using a standard email system that comes with bsd unix,
and some site listed us as an open relay (inviting
spammers to us, by the way) and other sites then
refused or regular email.

We weren't spamming, and no one was using us as a
relay. The vigilantes just decided to hijack the RFC
process and unilaterally declare that email had to
operate their way or else.

BRAD JENSEN <brad_at_elstore.com> WROTE:
> don't like the ads I get on egroups lists etc, but
> I've learned to ignore them.

JIM REARDON <jim_at_amusive.com> WROTE:
> You signed up for the service.

Not really. Many so-called opt-in lists add you
automatically if you purchase something, and some even
if you visit the web site, or they even add you from
other sources. That becomes 'optout', not in.

JIM REARDON <jim_at_amusive.com> WROTE:
> My main point is that it defers
> costs to those you advertise.

And my point is that the costs are always paid by those
who are advertised to, taken as a group.

JIM REARDON <jim_at_amusive.com> WROTE:
> The only responses you have are invalid:
>
> * I get free radio, and hear ads.
> - How does this compare? You're receiving a free
> service, and in return, paying for that service.

Soory, I don't follow this. I pay for free radio?

JIM REARDON <jim_at_amusive.com> WROTE:
> YOU just want to bombard everyone, whom you offer no free
> service -- in fact -- who very likely have to PAY to
> receive your messages, with email.

For most people in America, the real cost of the
message is the time and attention it takes to read or
reject it. I have no desire to 'bonmbard everyone' (do
you mean send email to people?) but rather to send
messages to people likely to be interested in my
product.

JIM REARDON <jim_at_amusive.com> WROTE:
> * I signed up for a free service and get ads.
> - You signed up for a free service. You have to pay to
> keep that service up. Same as the radio.
>
> Specious reasoning is all you'll ever get out of an
> unethical person, though. Make something sound right
> on the top and hopefully nobody will see beyond that.

Or get grumpy and self-righteous and hope that no one
will try to follow your reasoning.

I guess I did not communicate my point, since you
haven't mentioned it in your cavalier dismissal. The
customers pay for the product. The product pays for the
advertising. The audience always pay for the show, even
if they think it is a free show.

The advertising flacks always want to convince the
audience that the show is free. It ain't. Banner ads
and opt-in advertising are still an intrusion, and
still unsolicited. People would leave them out if they
could (and I have read hear the outrage of advertising
people over the programs that block them.

Sure, you can avoid banner ads by not visiting
websites. And you can avoid unsolicited emails by not
using email.

Most of the original structure of the internet was paid
for with government funds, meaning taxes. I paid over
$250,000 in taxes last year. Now that much of it is
commerically supported, it is well to remember that the
seed investment was taxes, and the current economies of
scale would not exist without the original investment.

BRAD JENSEN <brad_at_elstore.com> WROTE:
> I heard people quoting 30 cents a name for opt-in
> contacts one time, and it sounds like the banner ad
> hysteria all over again. What's the justification for
> such astronomical rates?

JIM REARDON <jim_at_amusive.com> WROTE:
> Okay, well I live in Illinois. Gas was, until a few
> weeks ago, over $2.00 a gallon. So I should grab my
> shotgun, drive on through the cornfields and hijack a
> tanker truck? Seems a bit... overboard.

Yeah, when Clinton mentioned tapping the petroleum
reserve, OPEC immediately started to back down, so he
was careful never to mention it again.

BRAD JENSEN <brad_at_elstore.com> WROTE:
> There is nothing unethical about unsolicited email, any
> more than unsolicited regular mail. It's just that it
> has been done so badly that it annoys everyone.

JIM REARDON <jim_at_amusive.com> WROTE:
> And, from the sounds of it, you don't know how to do it
> any better.

Glad you agree with me.

JIM REARDON <jim_at_amusive.com> WROTE:
> <Sigh, yet another obvious sales pitch removed...>

I don't see your sales pitch as subtle at all. Your way
of annoying people and making money is ethical and
good, so please annoy people and make money in a way
that makes you money.

BRAD JENSEN <brad_at_elstore.com> WROTE:
> Thanks for your suggestions of opt-in lists. I do think
> your technique for approaching potential clients could
> use some work.

JIM REARDON <jim_at_amusive.com> WROTE:
> I do not do business with spammers, MLM, or get rich
> schemes. I hold my name, my reputation, and my
> websites to higher standards and refuse to sell my
> visitors something I can't stand behind myself (and
> I've rejected a good amount of advertising for that
> reason).

I'll believe you when all your websites have default
no-banner modes, and your opt-in email lists ask
permission for each ad that is displayed. Until then
it will seem like you have just lowered your annoyance
below the threshold of response.

> Jim Reardon <jim_at_amusive.com> 815-744-3119
> what do you want for free? http://www.freecenter.com/
> free forums, polls, and more! http://www.sitegadgets.com/?sig

What do you want for free? It isn't free.

When you drive your car down the street, I am paying
for your comfort and convenience by breathing the
exhaust, which lowers my life expectancy, increases my
susceptibility to illness, and offends my sense of
smell.

Brad Jensen brad_at_elstore.com
President
Electronic Storage Corporation Tulsa OK USA
918-664-7276
LaserVault Report Retrieval & Data Mining
www.Laservault.com




Received on Fri Aug 04 2000 - 16:22:59 CDT