NONE: Online Advertising List / Volume 1, Issue #97, October 1, 1996
Online Advertising List / Volume 1, Issue #97, October 1, 1996
online-ads_at_mailserv.tenagra.com
Tue, 1 Oct 1996 23:58:40 -0500
Online Advertising Discussion List
Volume 1, Issue #97, October 1, 1996
archives and FAQ: http://www.tenagra.com/online-ads/
moderator: Cliff Kurtzman, owner-online-ads_at_mailserv.tenagra.com
posting address: online-ads_at_mailserv.tenagra.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This week's Online Advertising Discussion List sponsors:
======================== AD JUGGLER ========================
Advanced management system that makes maintaining banner ads a
breeze 100% web based, full stats & reports. more:
http://www.adjuggler.com
----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>Announcing the 1996 CyberAtlas Web Advertising Roadmap<<<<<<<<
Need quick answers? Get a copy of the Roadmap and find your way around
click-through, banner design, and much more: http://www.cyberatlas.com
==================================================================
****List Administration****
Richard Hoy is off to staff an exhibit at a conference in New Orleans,
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A big thank you to all of you who have contributed to the list over the
last few months. It has really turned into a useful resource for the
exchange of information about online advertising.
The list archives are getting out of control with their current (lack of)
structure. When we are able to catch our breath from client projects, we
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Best,
Cliff Kurtzman and Richard Hoy
moderators
Online Ads
==================================================================
Contents
1. Re: The future of the advertiser/agency relationship,
david_smith_at_kvo.com (David Smith)
2. Re: Has Commonwealth fled to Rio with our money?, "Bob Wyman"
<bobwyman_at_healthgate.com>
3. Mention of Discussion List in Today's San Francisco Chronicle,
rhoy_at_tenagra.com
4. location ??, aktaylor_at_austin.ibm.com
5. Re: HealthGate Guarantees click-rate, "Bob Wyman" <bobwyman_at_healthgate.com>
6. Banners are content, too, Bob Poulsen <web_at_ecola.com>
7. Mention of Discussion List in Today's San Francisco,
markbar_at_aloha.net (Mark Barbanell)
============================================
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:46:38 -0700
To: online-ads_at_mailserv.tenagra.com
From: david_smith_at_kvo.com (David Smith)
Subject: ONLINE-ADS>> Re: The future of the advertiser/agency relationship
John R. Fess wrote:
<snip>
On the other hand, there are some agencies who "get" the interactive world
and provide value to their clients in a different way. Instead of making
money off a percentage of ads placed, they charge professional fees to
assist their clients in understanding how to use the web and other media as
effectively as possible. If the best course of action is _not_ to buy web
ads, then that is what such agencies will recommend. What a refreshing
concept! :-)
</snip>
Can't leave this ace on the table.
KVO chucked advertising media commissions years ago for a fee-based model.
That has made it simpler for us to offer new media services. And since we
can push the levers of advertising, PR, direct mail and executive
communications, I can tell (and have told) clients when projects are NOT
suited for the web. Strangely enough, they haven't felt refreshed, but
perhaps disappointed.
Then John asks:
<snip>
Winners on the web will be smarter about how to use it effectively and any
agency which helps an advertiser get smarter is providing real value --
regardless of how much advertising is ultimately purchased.
Any other thoughts/feelings/comments about agency services:
What value do they claim to provide today?
What value will they need to provide in the future?
Who "gets it" and who doesn't?
</snip>
One value is applying familiar rigor to the new medium. Who is your
audience? What are their needs? What do you want them to do (your
objective on being online)? How will you judge success? Many advertisers
are so spooked by the web's immediacy and interactivity that they forget
the fundamentals. But as always, the agency that designs a program aimed
at specified goal serves AND educates its client at the same time.
One thought: media commissions aside, a bigger challenge for ad agencies is
overcoming a "project" orientation. We are used to short-term projects to
create a specific ad, commercial or mail piece. But a web site is a
living, breathing animal that needs care and feeding. We've had to
experiment with new creative processes, QA steps and analysis capabilities
to help our clients maintain web projects. At the same time, we set
clients up to maintain their content themselves. Not only is this more
time and cost efficient for our clients (than having us perform routine
maintenance), but it also allows them to invest in our services more
strategically.
das
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Smith, V.P. New Media, KVO Advertising and PR
Web Strategy, Development and Promotion for Corporations
david_smith_at_kvo.com (503) 221-2391 fax 221-0564 http://www.kvo.com
Portfolio #14: A new mystery. New games. New T-shirts. Hit www.kvo.com
-----------------------------NEXT
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:26:47 -0400
From: "Bob Wyman" <bobwyman_at_healthgate.com>
To: <online-ads_at_mailserv.tenagra.com>, "James Lick" <jlick_at_drivel.com>
Subject: ONLINE-ADS>> Re: Has Commonwealth fled to Rio with our money?
James Lick <jlick_at_drivel.com> wrote:
>3) Their site is unreachable on an unusually frequent
> basis. 4) Even when their site is up, sometimes it takes several
> minutes to load a banner. ... [This reflects] poorly on the
> member sites by giving the impression that the member site
> itself is slow and unprofessional.
Too often, technologies are accepted because they "appear" to work.
Thus, a large number of sites have accepted the kind of system that
Commonwealth offers. i.e. off-site serving of banners. Unfortunately,
when you take a really close look at the implementation, you'll
discover that there are many, many flaws. Performance and reliabilty
is only part of the problem.
It takes us all quite a bit of work to manage the complexity of your
own site. However, the moment you introduce off-site banner serving,
you include the full complexity of the off-site server within your
own system. Thus, any efforts to minimize page load time, server
availability, etc. are limited by your ability to control the other
site (probably none.) Downtime now has to be measured as your own
downtime PLUS the downtime of the off-site server. If you're lucky,
you'll work with a good server, however, you will *always* be at risk
no matter how professional the other site is.
This approach of off-site banner serving may work for the very small
sites that simply can't afford the burden of managing for quality of
service. For larger sites, the burden of an off-site server will
simply be too great.
bob wyman
-----
HealthGate Data Corp.
<URL:http://www.healthgate.com/>
-----------------------------NEXT
To: online-ads_at_mailserv.tenagra.com
From: rhoy_at_tenagra.com
Subject: ONLINE-ADS>> Mention of Discussion List in Today's San Francisco
Chronicle
Hey Everybody,
There is a good story in today's San Francisco Chronicle about online
advertising, and it also mentions the list.
It's Tough to Get Noticed on the Web
Advertisers find the novelty has worn off
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/chronicle/article.cgi?BU25590.DTL:/chronicle/a
rchive/1996/10/01
richard
moderator
-----------------------------NEXT
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:09:48 -0500 (CDT)
To: online-ads_at_mailserv.tenagra.com
From: aktaylor_at_austin.ibm.com
Subject: ONLINE-ADS>> location ??
Is there any reliable way to tell if the person browsing
your site is from a particular city??? ie, can I display
Austin ads to Austin people, and Boston ads to Boston people ???
-- Andrew Taylor
-----------------------------NEXT
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:59:01 -0400
To: online-ads_at_mailserv.tenagra.com
From: "Bob Wyman" <bobwyman_at_healthgate.com>
Subject: ONLINE-ADS>> Re: HealthGate Guarantees click-rate
Varun Arora <varora_at_giasbm01.vsnl.net.in> wrote:
>> The CPM should be tied to the historical yield of the spot
>> in which the impressions are to be generated.
>
> And what does one do for a new site?
HealthGate's method of guaranteed click-rates protects both you and
the advertiser in this case. Simply open up business by
"guaranteeing" base click-through-rates (probably 2%). Then log the
activity. As time passes, you'll get better data and you'll be able
to raise the CPM once you can show that your site consistently
generates more than the base CTR. Your "guarantee" to the advertiser
covers him/her against paying for ads that are on a site that might
not have the right demographics or design. You are able to
confidently demand industry normal prices since you can prove that
you'll deliver.
This is much better than what normally happens when a site comes up.
Two styles predominate today: one style is the company that comes out
with a strong sales team and convinces advertisers that they should
pay premium rates. (Often, the advertisers are disappointed). The
other, more common, style is the new site that offers its ads at a
very deep discount or free to the first advertisers. (This often
generates a windfall for the advertiser but leaves the publisher
unjustly giving away product...)
Rather than killing yourself in an effort to cajole people into
believing that your site is wonderful before it is up or kill you
budget by giving away your ads, simply guarantee the click through
rates and let experience show if and when you should raise your
CPM's.
> 1) Which analyser software are you using?
> Are you satisfied with it?
We haven't been able to find good analyser software yet which can
handle all that we need to do. Thus, I've had to build a system
combining the best publicly available software I can find with
HealthGate specific extensions. We use MarketWave's HitList log file
analyser for most of our basic Web site activity analysis and then
have our own extensions to handle the logs from our ad banner server.
You can get more information on the MarketWave system at:
<http://www.marketwave.com/>. MarketWave's system runs on Windows or
NT and stores into an Access database. Thus, if you need something
other than the hundreds of reports they can generate, it is fairly
easy to whip up what you need on your own. (With VB or Access...)
> 2) What do you think about what I said regarding design of
> click through ads? Are agencies in the US competent in such
> design? From what I've seen so far, and the debates in other
> related digests, it doesn't seem that way.
Our business is providing professional and consumer medical
information on the Internet and building the systems needed to
maintain sites like ours. It would be a mistake for us to get into
the ad design business since that would massively de-focus our
efforts and probably cause us quite a bit of trouble in terms of
maintaining our editorial independence from advertisers.
Additionally, I think it is clearly the case that while there are few
agencies who really know how to design banners today, many agencies
are learning fast. Thus, if we were to invest in ad design
capabilities, we would soon discover that the people who should be
doing it (the agencies) are doing it much better than we can.
bob wyman
----
<http://www.healthgate.com/>
-----------------------------NEXT
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 08:54:46 -0700
To: online-ads_at_mailserv.tenagra.com
From: Bob Poulsen <web_at_ecola.com>
Subject: ONLINE-ADS>> Banners are content, too
I found this site the other day from a listing at Yahoo's Pick of the Week:
The Microscope - weekly web ad reviews
http://www.pscentral.com/
Self-proclaimed "two ad men" critique several current Web ad banners,
"bringing you the most creative and compelling ads the web has to offer."
-Bob Poulsen
Ecola
web_at_ecola.com | http://www.ecola.com/ | Ecola Directories
-----------------------------NEXT
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 08:29:06 -1000 (HST)
To: online-ads_at_mailserv.tenagra.com
From: markbar_at_aloha.net (Mark Barbanell)
Subject: ONLINE-ADS>> Mention of Discussion List in Today's San Francisco
I read with interest the article in the online version of the SF Chronicle
today that Roy mentioned.I have some comments.Here are some quotes and my
observations....
*******************
`You can almost see the increased desperation for clicks with much more
promotional messages and much more
exhortative language,'' said Jay Thomas, senior manager of new media for
Levi Strauss & Co.
Desperation equals lost sales due to subconscious recognition of this by
the consumer which translates to wariness.You have to cultivate trust.
*****************
But Web consumers are becoming more wary of such lures. And some say it's
high time for companies to realize that
not everybody wants to visit the newest chewing gum Web site, whether or
not they get free gum.
This is where all you guys have used the old ways and tried to apply them
to the new medium.Advertisers wants it to look ,feel ,smell, and taste like
an ad because they want to make sure it is perceived as such by the
browsing public..I believe you have to be more informative in your approach
and lull the viewer into trusting you and hint at the pitch.Not be
blatent.It is time for some new thinking here.I see the basic problem on
all sides as a lack of trust.Trust that an ad will sell and trust that an
advertiser is getting "value".These criteria are based on old ways of
looking at advertising.Tangeable ways of monitering and charging and
assessing successful ads.You have to give them information and trust in the
intelligence of the public to see you have provided the mold and then give
them something to hold onto in thier minds that will bring them back.
********************
But some question whether such placements compromise the integrity of the
site. ``A lot of Web sites out there don't
realize the importance of separating church and state,'' said Neil Monnens,
founder of Web- Rep, a San Francisco
firm that sells ads on Web sites.
He said consumers will rebel against sites that push products rather than
provide information.
Here is the crux of the problem.Advertisers are not taking this basic
principle into consideration.It's like if you have a site that is indexed
so well it comes up everywhere does that lead to some sort of backlash?I
believe there is a fine line and that if you have a site that has a bunch
of banners and little free useful information to the browser then the site
is perceived as bogus or a trick of sorts......People don't want to think
they've been had.They want to feel helped and looked out for not taken
advantage of.It didn't take me long to figure out if I gave more than I
solicited my site was more productive.It just took a while to learn to
trust the fact that people want information and the freedom to leave and
return to a site without a heavy sales pitch.In fact I believe no actual
pitch is the way to go.The problem again is that you advertisers are just
that.Advertisers and that is your job.Well we're not far past the time when
the internet was for information not advertisers.The species has yet to
evolve and you are all pushing to figure out how to sell sell sell.How
about just giving something tangeable away without the pitch?Like
Netscape.....Sponsorship is a way for one but it too is old style.On my
page I have information and a pitch but I also have a whole page of useful
links to all kinds of sites that are informative for a person interested in
what I have to offer.This gives the impression of giving and trust.They
could easily go to one of those other sites and never return but I trusted
in the fact that if I gave them that opportunity they would view it as a
gesture of generosity and come to trust me .Without a heavy pitch or
enticements........But advertisers seem not to be able to delve into
intangeable areas yet or trust in more than numbers and quick results.
********************
At this point, most Web advertising is still simple banners that provide a
link to an advertiser's Web site. Some work
better than others. InvestorsEdge, a financial Web site, doubled its
click-through rate from 3 percent to 7 percent by
adding questions to its banners such as ``How did Charlie get all those
Angels anyway?''
Users who clicked on the banner landed on the InvestorsEdge site, where
there was no answer to the question.
``In a way, you're sort of tricking people to explore,'' said Robert Lamb,
vice president of business development for
the site.
Now how do you think this works on people?Don't you think tricking people
would instill doubt and misstrust?I wouln't buy from a site like that.It's
a matter of principal.
**************
Often, Web surfers click off as soon as they realize they've landed on an
ad. But some Web sites still count their brief visit as a click- through.
This is where I have to chuckle.When I raz everyone on this list for
tossing around all the statistics this is what I'm getting at.It's
impossible to measure any of this in an accurate way.Not many surfers want
to be inundated with ads period.It's all smoke and mirrors.Would you trust
someone who tricks you into going to a url or would you trust someone who
obviopusly had the consumers well being at heart and had made lots of
internet connections and friends in the form of cooperative links and who
shared information instead of enticing someone to go somewhere they didn't
want to go in the first place?My problem has been people thinking "how can
this guy not be hard selling me and giving such a good deal?There has to be
something wrong here...That attitude is caused by the content and style of
advertising they are used to seeing.It's hard for them to believe that
someone isn't hard selling and they think theres something wrong.
I'm not a professional you all know that.I just read all the posts and
articles like this one(Chronicle article) and know I'm on the right track
and that track is not the tradiditional one.Hey,if I were you i'd be
snickering at me too but that's the adventage someone like myself has.I
don't have any advertising baggage to weigh me down.What I do have is a
creative mind and alot of common sense.
If you read through this ,thanks......If you didn't ,well you don't have
an open mind anyhow so it wasn't directed at you anyway..........
One more thing....I have a friend who is developing what I believe to be
the next step.I've heard some people coming close to the concept.I've been
sworn to secrecy so I can't mention it yet.I'll give you a hint
though......You won't be using your browser to have access to it and you'll
be able to reach your market before then get on the internet and it will be
on the computer screen.......Think about it for awhile.....On the otherhand
,well,I could be another clown over over here in La La land with delusions
of grandeur.You gotta ask yourselves though.......Could he be onto
something?
Mark Barbanell
River Estate Guest House
Kauai,Hawaii
markbar_at_aloha.net
http://www.eskimo.com/~pageless/mb/riverestate
END
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This week's Online Advertising Discussion List sponsors:
======================== AD JUGGLER ========================
Advanced management system that makes maintaining banner ads a
breeze 100% web based, full stats & reports. more:
http://www.adjuggler.com
----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>Announcing the 1996 CyberAtlas Web Advertising Roadmap<<<<<<<<
Need quick answers? Get a copy of the Roadmap and find your way around
click-through, banner design, and much more: http://www.cyberatlas.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Postings to this list should be directed to: online-ads_at_mailserv.tenagra.com
You may leave this list at any time by sending an email message with the
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