NONE: ONLINE-ADS>> MODERATOR's NOTE - response to Robert Hoffer's (and
ONLINE-ADS>> MODERATOR's NOTE - response to Robert Hoffer's (and
owner-online-ads_at_o-a.com
Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:21:10 -0600
other's) posts
Sender: owner-online-ads_at_o-a.com
Precedence: bulk
On Tuesday, Robert Hoffer <rhoffer_at_nerds.com> sent in a post essentially
asking why there weren't more opinions, and accusing the list of being:
"...the largest group of mutes in the advertising business."
The full post is in the archive. You can see the post at:
http://www.o-a.com/archive/current/0013.html
This generated some responses, both positive and negative. The negative
posts (of which I got two) made assertions that I as moderator need to
address directly.
I don't want to air this things in the normal forum because they are really
issues dealing with how this list is run. But I also don't want to be
accused of burying post that have something negative to say about the way I
run things.
To be fair to everyone, I decided to put the posts regarding this issue all
in one message and explain my position here and now. If you want to read
on, then read on. If you don't really care one way or the other, hit the
delete key and go back to enjoying the regular posts.
Here we go....
In response to Robert's post, Kevin Leathers <Kevin.Leathers_at_elecomm.com> wrote:
================================================================================
<snip>
>I, for one, have not been opposed to speaking my mind or asking for advice,
>however, I have noticed that a great number of my return post and original
>request are not ending up on the list. That is the key problem with a
>moderated list. I have yet to figure out what criteria get you on the list,
>because I have noticed a number of post that are designed to promote sites
>or services to us are ending up on the list where valid questions I have
>asked do not. Because of this, I tend to think twice before typing a long
>response.
>
>Moderating a list is daunting and thankless, but maybe Richard will share
>his criteria for getting your post on, or loosen up the process and let us
>decide what is useful.
</snip>
I am not sure if Kevin was a member back in early December, so I will give
him the benefit of the doubt. Back then it was brought to my attention that
I was sending way too much through per day for most people to reasonably
read. To gauge if this was the majority opinion, I set up a way for the
list to vote. About 25% of the total membership at that time decided to
voted on this issue. The result of the vote was that 75% felt some sort of
limit needed to be enforced. Based on the comments I received, about 10
posts and one digest per day was limit I established. At the time I
reported the voting results, I also explained the criteria I use for
determining to approve a post. Rather than taking-up bandwidth here listing
those criteria, please refer to the message I sent out that day. It is at:
http://www.o-a.com/archive/1996/December/0138.html
I may get 20 good messages in a day, but I need to edit that down to just
10. It doesn't mean I don't like you or I only want to propagate certain
opinions. The fact is I make cuts, and sometimes those cuts are tough
medicine to swallow.
If you are replying to someone's question or statement and it doesn't get
through, email the person directly with your response. In fact, this
alleviates the problem Kevin brought up in his post about investing time in
a post that is ultimately rejected. If your message gets to the person
asking the question, then it is not a waste of time. In fact, in an ideal
world it should work like this:
-a person sends a question to the list,
-everyone sends their response directly to that person and CC's the
list;
-I pick a few good responses to send immediately to the list,
-the person who submitted the original question summarizes the
responses and sends
that to the list.
I have tried to put in systems to handle lower priority, but important
posts, like new promotion/advertising-related products, services and
reports. That was the purpose of the new products submission form. The
exception to this is when someone offers free ad/promo products or services
to the list. If there is space, I send those posts through to encourage
that behavior. I am trying to leverage the lists image and size so that,
hopefully, vendors of these products and services will give us first crack
at trying out new stuff for free.
One thing that I am still working on is a FAQ to which I can refer people
who ask basic questions. I still get a fair amount of those types of
questions submitted and if I can help (and have time), I respond to those
individually. Many times, however, I just don't have time to respond and
reject them outright.
<snip>
>Further, if you hit the reply key to a post, the email goes to the
>respondent and not the list. If you want it to go to the list you have to
>cut and paste the list address or set up a forward to. I don't know if this
>can be changed, but it would be nice.
</snip>
It is set up that way for the above mentioned reasons, and to ease the
temptation of firing off emails without giving the response much though.
That is very easy to do if the messages are set-up to reply directly to the
list. You get lots of shallow yea-me-too-type-posts that really just clog
up the system.
<snip>
>Also, I get many direct email response from list members, and have begun to
>do the same (as a matter of fact I am sending a copy of this email to you,
>in case it does not make it on the list). I would prefer to see all these
>post go to the list for others to view.
</snip>
I covered this in the above statements. You are doing the right thing by
engaging in this practice.
In response to Robert's post, Rob Frankel (ROBFRANKEL_at_aol.com) wrote:
=====================================================================
<snip>
>Great post. I don't believe the 3,000 number either.
</snip>
Actually, I don't think Robert ever said he didn't BELIEVE that this list
has more than 3000 subscribers, he just said that the list was quiet.
I don't know what to say in response to this other than I don't make it a
practice to be dishonest. Here is how I count subscribers:
In Unix there is a command called "word count" that reports how many lines
there are in a file. Two files contain the email addresses of everyone on
this list - one file for those who get the non-digest and one for those who
get the digest. The addresses are ordered in the arrangement of one per
line. I execute this command on each file and add the two numbers together.
Majordomo - the mail program that manages the discussion list -
automatically screens for duplicate addresses within the individual files.
This means every address within each file is unique. There are some people
who get both the non-digest and digest versions of the list, but this is
minimal - about five or so.
Addresses that bounce I try to remove within a day; so at any one time less
than 1% of the addresses are bad.
<snip>
>For anyone with any real experience, this list -- which showed potential --
>has degenerated into exactly the kind of environment that kills good
>marketing interactions.
</snip>
I don't agree. I know that journalists follow our discussions. I know that
major organizations such as The New York Times Syndicate and Petry
Interactive have been prompted to respond from our discussions. Many people
have commented that they have learned a lot from our discussions. Such
indicators suggest to me that there is a great deal of good interaction
going on.
An initiative to keep the discussions going and improving is the Ad Bytes
supplement I started a few weeks ago. Its purpose is to interject timely
topics for spawning new discussions. I am trying to establish more and more
of those sorts of things so people keep seeing this list as a resource.
Please realize that this is a list about online advertising, PR and
promotion, which is really a subset of marketing. I try to refrain from
sending posts through that talk about online transactions, e-commerce, MLM,
overall marketing strategies, etc. There are many other fine lists that
cover those topics. If that is the subject of your post, it is probably not
going to get through.
Here are some people who responded a little differently to Robert's post:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:14:04 -0400
From: "Rose Bowen" <bowenten_at_swva.net>
I think there are several factors at work here, Robert.
1) Intimidation: Probably the largest number of members on this list are like
me, just getting started with Web advertising and design. When people start
posting about click-throughs and clipping services and advertising rates, using
terminology that is unfamiliar, many of us feel like we're eavesdropping on a
convention of lawyers! I know that's the way I feel, and I only post when I
read a question from someone who speaks ordinary English like I do. I read the
posts and save the ones that are understandable and pertinent to the type of
web business that I do.
2) A sense of competition: Perhaps many don't post because they're afraid of
giving away some secret formula they have for doing business, or some theory
that they don't want anyone to "steal" from them. Frankly, that's not the way
I feel, since Solomon said that "there is nothing new under the sun."
Those are what I feel are probably the two biggest deterrents to posting on
this list. Maybe there are more...
I love to exchange ideas with other web designers and advertisers. The thing I
like most about the Web is the evenness of the playing field. An amateur with
a good sense of layout and design can create a fine web site, and someone with
a knack for advertising (and courtesy!) can do a first rate job of advertising
a web site. You don't need a special degree in business administration or a
fancy resume to work here--and best of all, nobody has to know if you're an
amateur just toying with web design or a professional making a living at it.
The Web is one of the few "frontiers" left, I think. I find it exciting!
> Quit being such whimps and contribute right now or I'm dropping off of the
> list - I warn you, I'll leave, I mean it, really, I'll never post again!
First of all, the word is spelled "wimps" (sorry, just a frustrated English
teacher here!), and secondly, why would your leaving prompt anyone here to
change their habits as far as posting is concerned? You need to stay and
provoke a change, Robert, if you want this list to really do what it's supposed
to do. You have done us all a service by clearing the air about the postings
here. Now hang around and watch this thing begin to grow. If you leave,
you'll never know how much good your post actually accomplished....<G>
Rose Bowen
web designer, freelance writer, homeschooling mother of eight,
homecare nurse, seamstress, financial counselor, bookkeeper, health
instructor, Christian vocalist, lifetime student in the school of life!
(how's that for a resume? Sure sounds more impressive than "housewife,"
doesn't it?)
http://www.sayhello.com/bowen/global.html
Rose Bowen mailto:bowenten_at_swva.net
----------------------------------NEXT
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:05:10 -0400
From: "David Beroff" <david_at_note.com>
> ...while you all may be very smart, you
> sure don't say much...
He who listens with two ears must reap
many vegetables from one's garden.
(I don't understand Zen, either. :-)
> ...post them online for the rest of us to
> criticize, ridicule, flame...
Ahem... Robert, unlike some areas on the 'Net,
the idea of this list is high content-to-noise,
not high posters-to-lurkers. I subscribe to several
lists of a similar nature, and this one by far
brings out the most amount of *useful* ideas.
We recently had a vote, and by a large margin
agreed to have the moderator prune vigorously.
Bottom line: Discuss, yes; flame, no. Many
times a great idea is posted that honestly needs
no further discussion, so none is given!
> Quit being such whimps and contribute right now or
> I'm dropping off of the list - I warn you, I'll leave,
> I mean it, really, I'll never post again!
We wouldn't want to lose anyone posting from nerd.com.
> ... might as well be ... alt.sex.stories ...
"The provocative .GIF wiggled her flashy animation
at the unsuspecting surfer and implored him to...
'Click me... here!' "
(Sorry, folks; I couldn't resist. :-)
-- David Beroff <david_at_note.com>
Share in the Sarnat WebSuccess story! http://www.note.com/success/
----------------------------------NEXT
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 03:33:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Stellarpho_at_aol.com
What is the difference between Lurkers and Learners, I subscribed to
online-ads as a direct result of a college class I am taking. One more
semester and I will have my degree in Marketing, including a course on
Marketing on the Internet. I do not have a web page posted as of yet, but
I do run my own business (in addition to going to school full time). What
better way to get information than to find out from people first hand.
Take care.
Steve Veselik (Stellar Photography)
Stellarpho_at_aol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
I hope that everyone now has a better perspective on my side of the story.
If you have comments or questions, please send them directly to me at:
rhoy_at_tenagra.com
thanks,
richard
moderator
