The Online Advertising Discussion List Archives

Online Advertising Discussion List -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- List Moderator: Supported by: Kevin Fadden InterEdge kfad_at_interedge.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- April 18, 1996 Digest#0020 -------------------------------------------------------------------- ******************************************************************** This week's sponsor: InterEdge For more information on this fertile advertising ground, check out our rate card at: -------------------------------------------------------------------- [THIS SPACE FOR RENT] For information on sponsoring Online-Ads, see: ******************************************************************** Here's what the running total of votes are for: DIGEST v. SINGLE MESSAGES 9 1 In this Digest... NEW ------- "Free links and postings" ~ Nikki Murphy "Off-Web Marketing for On-Web Businesses" ~ Rebecca Coffey "Really Basic Stuff" ~ John Audette CONTINUING ------- "Re: May I have a heaping helping of ADvice, please?" ~ Tom Hukins ~ Jonathan Bednarsh ~ Jarvis Coffin ~ Thom Reece ~ Kevin Fadden "re: Online Media Kits" ~ Jarvis Coffin "Banners, Links, Sponserships, work?" ~ Kevin Fadden PERSONAL INTRODUCTIONS ------- "introduction" ~ Jonathan Bednarsh REQUESTS FOR INFORMATION ------- BANNER SWAP MEET ------- Look here for a *short* listing of sites that are looking to swap ad banners with each other, you, and everyone else. ***************** NEW ***************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nikki Murphy Subject: Free links and postings Hello to all of those folks looking for FREE! ways to promote their site. I've been doing lots of research about postings, and the sites that i've found most useful are: http://www.mmgco.com, http://www.mgroup.com, http://www.submit-it.com, and http://www.online-biz.com/promote/index.cgi. It's quite laborious but may prove to be useful, so check them out! Of course if you fancy looking at our site it's http://www.blox.com. Have fun all and happy free linking! Nikki Murphy AlphaBlox Corporation Tel: (Direct line) + 44 1628 414 237 Fax: 01628 771136 email: nmurphy_at_blox.com Internet: http://www.blox.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: vwm_at_sover.net (Vermont Web Marketing) Subject: Off-Web Marketing for On-Web Businesses Regarding Gail Plaubiak's question about how to "get in front of" her customers better. The solution lies in marketing as much as it does advertising. I have an article posted at called "Off-Web Marketing for On-Web Businesses." It discusses the value of bringing prospective clients to your site via email marketing techniques like sponsoring discussion lists and electronic newsletters. Perhaps there is a discussion list or newsletter to which your potential business clients would like a free subscription. Rebecca Coffey Director Vermont Web Marketing http://www.sover.net/~vwm Publisher of "Web Marketer," an online newsletter of business planning and marketing tips for Web businesses. http://www.sover.net/~vwm/newsl.html vwm_at_sover.net -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Audette Subject: Really Basic Stuff Greetings... My company, Multimedia Marketing Group, is an online version of the PR side of a traditional advertising agency. We do website promotion and traffic building via database and search engine registrations, press releases and a number of other online activities. On a *daily* basis our clients ask us for advice/services that would come from the advertising side of a traditional agency -- advertising on the Internet/WWW. I don't believe that we have specific expertise or knowledge in this area and I inform them of that. As a result I have the feeling that we are missing the opportunity to add revenues to MMG. I *do* inform our clients that my perception is that Net advertising is a very inefficient marketplace -- that I see very little correlation between the amount of money spent and the value received. Other than that, here is everything else I know about Net advertising: o there is an emerging CPM model of roughly $22.00/thousand for broad demographics and somewhat higher rate for more defined demographics o beware of traffic counts based on anything but documented impressions delivered (and hopefully click-throughs) We've all heard that old bromide that in traditional media half of our advertising dollars are wasted -- we just don't know which half. It seems like that doesn't have to be true on the Net, with its efficient and quick feedback loop, and with the ability to monitor things such as click- throughs. Bottom line? I have been in business long enough to know that it's a challenge to attract business, and I hate turning it down. A strategic partnership between MMG (the PR side of the house) and a company that is competent in Net advertising (the advertising side of the house) would form a complete entity that could provide a total solution to a client. Interested? Regards, John Audette ------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Marketing Group John Audette ja_at_mmgco.com ~ 503-635-7506 ~ www.mmgco.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- WebStep (tm): Website Promotion & Public Relations -------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ***************** CONTINUING ***************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: May I have a heaping helping of ADvice, please? Cc: From: eBORcOM (Tom Hukins) Gail Palubiak wrote: >Aside from getting >listed with the major search engines and using meta tags I still remain >an island out here. My traffic, what little there is, seems to be mostly >people searching for new jobs. Though these people are of value to me, I >really need to get in front of the companies who need people. Places >like WebPost and PostMaster scare me, they sound like glorified >SubmitIt! services that work for a fee. I don't think I'm alone in my >fear of the unknown. Perhaps this discussion thread might bring about >many issues facing the online advertising industry. Before I start I must admit to a great deal of bias in this area, my main area of business is web site publicity but hopefully that gives me a bit of knowledge which will enable me to answer your question. If the people visiting your web site aren't the people who you want to be visiting your web site then somewhere along the line the site must be targeted at the wrong sort of audience. I've had a quick glance at your site and it seems to be quite clear as to what the site contains and what it is about. Therefore the reason why you aren't getting the audience you want must be that the people who know about your site and who feel they want to visit it are not who you intended. It could be inferred that this is because your publicity in inadequate and the simple solution is to get your site listed all over the place using one of the services mentioned above. You could use Submit-It for free but then you'd only get listed in 25 places. Postmaster, for example, will inform over 325 places including traditional web directories and search engines. They don't like to say where these places are and as I've never used the service I can't comment. This is a glorified Submit-It service, but it could be argued that it is sufficiently glorified to justify its charges. There certainly seem to be a number of satisfied customers who think so. Being listed all over the place will increase your hit rate and create greater exposure for your site. However, there is much more to publicity than being listed in places. The wording of your listing is vital, bad wording can create the wrong impression about what your site is. Dull wording doesn't make your site appeal. The trick is to let people know what your site is about but not to tell them everything so they want to come to your site to find out more and read all about what you do. Also targeted publicity is extremely useful. We use it as an integral part of our web site publicity service and I believe that after being listed in Yahoo, Alta Vista, Lycos, Excite, WebCrawler and a few other places it is the most effective form of publicity. Basically you find web pages of indeces of sites similar to yours and ask the index maintainer to add your site. Often they will have submission forms, like the more popular directories. People who are looking for a certain genre of site will often visit these indeces, either because they know about them already, find them linked from elsewhere, or they find them from a search engine. If you are getting the hits but not from the audience you want I would suggest looking for sites which would be interested in linking to you and getting in touch with them, or if you don't have a great deal of time getting someone else to do it for you. There are several other options such as site sponsorship, banner ads and whatever, but I'm not too knowledgeable on these so I'll leave that to someone else. [Banner ads have been discussed quite a bit recently anyway]. Lastly (as an unrelated point) I prefer lists in digest format to single messages being sent out as I hate logging in to "You have 30 unread messages". I hope that helps, Tom Hukins -- eBORcOM - The home of the Megaphone publicity service, the only way to make sure the world knows about your web pages. WWW E-Mail eborcom_at_eborcom.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Bednarsh Subject: re: May I have a heaping helping of ADvice, please? >(free) advice >on how I can get infront of my customers better. Aside from getting >listed with the major search engines and using meta tags I still remain >an island out here. Gayle, This is the most common problem facing new sites on the Web - how will people find me? I am not much of an expert per se, but I think I can help somewhat. My company has just released the newest and best guide to movies on the Internet - movieworld.com . We have just begun our marketing efforts,and we have seen some surprising results. We listed our site with over 100 search engines/directories as a start, and those submissions are still being processed as we speak. We then began participating in many of the newsgroups where people interested in movies "hang out", and we noticed traffic started to build, and comments started rolling in. Our big surprise was the end of last week, when we started marketing on Prodigy's various bulletin boards, etc. Our traffic jumped almost 10X, and we got over 4,000 _user_ per day, and our site has been up for only a week! That rate has continued, and we still haven't even touched AOL! The moral of the story here is that search engines, directories etc, are a mandatory minimum to get started...however you must actively get your message out to all the nooks and crannies of interest on the Net, and especially on the online services. This has to be done properly of course, spamming is not allowed. Either take the time to go comb the net and online services and begin getting the word out, or contact a company that can assist you (see sig) and you will notice the difference. The Net is the biggest collection of easily accessible niche markets ever, and that's why I think advertising on the Net will be successful. Hope all this helps.. Jon ************************************************************** Jonathan Bednarsh 212-246-6800 Internet Group jonb_at_internetgroup.com Internet Presence Creators http://www.movieworld.com - THE GUIDE TO MOVIES ON THE NET **************http://www.internetgroup.com******************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jarvis Coffin" Subject: re: May I have a heaping helping of ADvice, please? There are , of course, a number of business related Web sites on the Internet that welcome advertising and/or might be willing to post an executive recruitment feature (essentially a classified section...hmmm not a bad idea) on their sites. I'd recommend that you check out the Alliance of Global Business Exchange at http://www.globalbiz.com. Contact Leah Woolford, President. Jarvis Coffin burst_at_burstmedia.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Reece Subject: *heaping helping of ADvice...* In addition to my current position in the yacht brokerage industry, I have been a working direct response marketing consultant for over twenty years. My specialties are in the areas of copywriting, sales lead generation, and strategy development and implementation. I recently formed a new consulting firm called Online Marketing Group in Honolulu which specializes in providing these same services to the global marketing community. Gail Palubiak, asked good questions about how to promote and *get in front of my customers better*...it's the universal most-asked question in online marketing. I believe that much too much attention is spent trying to squeeze some life out of search engines. Yes, it's important that you do your best at listing your site with as many engines as possible (if for no other reason than they are free), but I do not consider it to be a primary means of promotion of a site. Indeed, I believe that one of the biggest disservices that has been done to newcomers to the online marketing world, is to suggest to them that all they have to do is list there site with the search engines and the world will beat a path to their doorway. This is utter nonsense. Please understand that online marketing is just one more way to approach your target audience. It is simply another way of doing business. Most, if not all, of the time tested methods of marketing a product or service still apply to the online world. We all work in niche marketing environments. Therefore you should use all the targeting methods, that have been refined over the years in the direct response industry, to isolate and identify your best prospects. This involves a combination of BOTH online and traditional media. Regardless of your industry, there are probably several, if not dozens, of niche publications available to both advertise in and submit publicity releases to. Don't overlook newsletters in your industry...both online and print...their great publicity sources. More directly related to online marketing are the newsgroups and mailing lists. Properly worked, these sources can be an un-ending source of new business leads and sales for your product or service. I hasten to add, however, that this requires a daily commitment to involve yourself in the discussion threads and to offer good and valuable information when the opportunity presents itself. Bill Gallegher of Gurrilla Marketing fame will tell you to take a very pro-active approach to all that you do. Incidently, do yourself a favor and visit his web site regularly. Some great stuff here. The best lesson that we can give to our budding young online marketers is to eliminate the word *online* and to start thinking of themselves as MARKETERS. Sorry for the long post, but I think the points are important...or I wouldn't have offered them. :-) Thom Reece ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY OF PROFESSIONAL YACHT / SHIP & CHARTER BROKERS * Certification Training Fax:808-395-0735 * Yacht Brokers Course e-mail: yacht50_at_aloha.net * YachtPro newsletter http://free.websight.com/Reece * International Yacht Broker Magazine * BrokerNET Multiple Listing Service * YACHTBROKERS-L is a moderated discussion list for professional yacht/ship & charter brokers. To subscribe send the following message to LISTSERV_at_HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM , SUBSCRIBE YACHTBROKERS-L YOURFIRSTNAME YOURLASTNAME ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Fadden Subject: May I have a heaping helping of ADvice, please? Gail Palubiak writes: >Aside from getting >listed with the major search engines and using meta tags I still remain >an island out here. My traffic, what little there is, seems to be mostly >people searching for new jobs. Though these people are of value to me, I >really need to get in front of the companies who need people. Places >like WebPost and PostMaster scare me, they sound like glorified >SubmitIt! services that work for a fee. I don't think I'm alone in my >fear of the unknown. Perhaps this discussion thread might bring about >many issues facing the online advertising industry. > >Well, I put it in your court, Kevin. Maybe you have some personal >thoughts on this situation. I've noted that in all of the responses received on this question, no one has harped on the value of advertising Gail's site. Now, the "conventional wisdom" would be that she should buy ads on other employment related sites. Of course, many of these may actually be her competition. I think the best bet, from the advertising side of things -- and this assumes that a budget does exist for it -- would be to purchase some keyword-based advertising on one of the search engines and/or major content providers (eg. c|net, HotWired). I'm sure it is expensive, but I have heard nothing but good things from those who have bought this type of advertising. Another avenue would be online mags -- I'm sure some can be found that either have articles that relate somewhat, and even others still which have classified sections that contains an area for help- wanted ads. The way I see it, you have two markets: You do have to try to get more "job-seekers" to your site -- the more you have, the more interested employers will be once you do get to them. The content sites and the classifieds ideas would be best for that market. For attracting employers, I would look into the keyword based ads on the search engines -- theoretically, if they need somebody, they will likely search to find what's already out there. Have the banner(s) link to a page sepcifically geared to these companies -- a portal to the rest of your site, through the eyes of an employer who might list their needs with you. First tell them why, and then show them. Best, Kevin Fadden -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jarvis Coffin" Subject: re: Online Media Kits Helen: Contact David O'Brasky at SRDS in New York (I have the phone number if you want it...let me know). You may be required to list in their print product, as well. I don't know. Otherwise, be prepared for the fact that agency people aren't surfing the net - not for media kit info. They are WAY too busy. I recommend good ol' fashion snail mail if you want to draw attention to your site with the ad community. Jarvis Coffin burst_at_burstmedia.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Fadden Subject: Banners, Links, Sponserships, work? <<<>>> >My hope was and still is to see discussions about the return on investment >for on line advertising. > >Many of us offer Internet based services. Some are e-mail based, often we >offer web sites. We all struggle with print versus usenet versus signature >versus online advertising approaches. > >What I am hoping to see is some feedback, real statistics would be >outstanding, on return on investment in the various mediums. > >We run a regular ad in "Internet World", do occassional press releases, >have placed ads in Local and National Newspapers, placed an ad in the >International Herald Tribune, have tried the print "yellow pages', and done >the search engine routine. > >To date the only route we are confident that has provided a clear return on >invertment is Internet World. The International Herald Tribune was >expensive for a small ad and did attract enough volume. The press release >routine has been delightful [nice to see articles about us in print] but to >date I would guess it has not generated enough business. The jury is still >out, in my mind on the Newpaper route. > >We have not done sponserships, or banners on other sites. > >What have been the success/lack of success stories about banners, >sponserships, or other online ad approaches. I do not have any personal success stories to give you -- I have yet to have enough money together to do any advertising myself. One thing I would like to say, and this is an observation more that anything: That is that direct marketers -- those who are actually selling some sort of product -- are the people who 1) Are *currently* conducting successful ad campaigns on the Web, and 2) They seem to be the ones "who are making money" -- it doesn't matter if it's software, computers or coffee mugs -- most of them that I know of are reporting steady sales increases based on their advertising efforts. Please, this is *exactly* the type of question that needs to be answered for the benefit of all of those people out there who "haven't jumped off the high-dive" yet, and are still staring down at the water going "I know I should do it, but I'm scared sh**less". If ANYBODY out there has any success stories to tell, please do so. We're not asking you to give us any secrets -- just reassure everyone that yes, Web advertising CAN work, it CAN be beneficial, and it CAN make a difference. That's all these people need to hear -- they can figure the rest out on their own -- just like you did. And the dismount. Judges? Kevin Fadden -------------------------------------------------------------------- ***************** PERSONAL INTRODUCTIONS ***************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Bednarsh Subject: introduction Hello all, My name is Jon Bednarsh. and I'm the Marketing Director for Internet Group here in NYC. I've been subscribed to I-sales and mktg for a looong time, but I just found this list and I think it has a good niche, although I just realize my last (and first) post probably was a bit off-topic. Anyway,IG helps small to mid-size businesses and organizations create an Internet presence. We hand-hold the beginners thru the process, and are customer service mavens. We have also developed our flagship site, www.movieworld.com, which had been up and running for about a week now. Our goal was to make finding movie info on the Net as simple and fun as possible. We used fun graphics and gif animations (NS 2.0 required for animations) to keep people entertained. Please go and tke a look, and let us know what you think. Be sure and enter the contest to win some $$$$. we are currently seeking advertisers to buy banners on our site. On a personal side, I am kind of a Net junkie although I haven't "surfed" in months for lack of time. I find lists like this that come to me provide me with the most useful info on the Net. In "the real world" I rarely get the opportunity to communicate with so many experts and people in the biz. I'll stop now since I have already taken up half the digest, so until next time... Jon ************************************************************** Jonathan Bednarsh 212-246-6800 Internet Group jonb_at_internetgroup.com Internet Presence Creators http://www.movieworld.com - THE GUIDE TO MOVIES ON THE NET **************http://www.internetgroup.com******************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- ***************** REQUESTS FOR INFORMATION ***************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ***************** BANNER SWAP MEET ***************** -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ The Washington, D.C. Motorcade Find stores and restaurants convenient to your route! 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