The Online Advertising Discussion List Archives

Online Advertising Discussion List -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- List Moderator: Supported by: Kevin Fadden InterEdge kfad_at_interedge.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- April 25, 1996 Digest#0025 -------------------------------------------------------------------- ******************************************************************** This week's sponsor: InterEdge For more information on this fertile advertising ground, check out our rate card at: -------------------------------------------------------------------- [THIS SPACE FOR RENT] For information on sponsoring Online-Ads, see: ******************************************************************** Here's what the running total of votes are for: DIGEST v. SINGLE MESSAGES 11 2 In this Digest... NEW ------- "Capturing the Referring Page" ~ Brian Raub "visitors vs. hits" ~ Mary Going CONTINUING ------- "Re: Yahoo and Proctor & Gamble" ~ Jarvis Coffin ~ Brian Massey "Off Come the Gloves (was re: Yahoo and Proctor & Gamble)" ~ Kevin Fadden PERSONAL INTRODUCTIONS ------- REQUESTS FOR INFORMATION ------- BANNER SWAP MEET ------- Look here for a *short* listing of sites that are looking to swap ad banners with each other, you, and everyone else. ***************** NEW ***************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Raub Subject: Capturing the Referring Page (Resending -- Sorry, I previously sent deirectly to Kevin Fadden!) ***Moderator: It probably went right by me -- coming into my personal box, I probably passed it off (judging by the subject line) as being a part of one of the many technical listservs to which I belong. Just had to illustrate the point.8-) -- KF*** My client is developing a fantasy sports product merchandising site (6/1 target date), and will be trading or buying banners (or simple links) at related sites. We want to track the referring source of click-throughs and link-throughs, but we don't know how to capture that data. When someone visits my client's site, is there a variable we can capture programmatically that identifies the site visited immediately prior to arrival at my client's site? Does the referring site have to take some programming action to pass along this information? Brian Raub -- Raub's Internet for Business --> http://ifb.com (Phone: 610-896-5815) - Web Marketing Strategies and Site Development for Smaller Companies - -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mary Going Subject: visitors vs. hits Hello everybody. This is my first post. I am doing major research for my site to offer advertising, so I will probably be asking lots of questions. Kevin, just shut me up if I over-extend my time on the "question-asking-floor." By way of introduction, I run a site called FireGirl which concentrates solely on chile peppers. (Yes, some do like it hot.) I receive x hits per day, and I have a hit counter on my top page. If I divide the average number of hits per day by the average number of people who increment the counter per day (is this confusing?), the number of hits per person is about 35. However, I saw where a person was claiming x hits, then x/3 people per day. real numbers for an example: My way: 1000 hits per day: 1000 / 35 = 30 people per day The other way: 1000 hits per day: 1000 / 3 = 333 people per day Now, frankly, if each person only looks at three things when they visit, then the site is probably pretty boring. Still, if I were only being told how many people per day visit the site, I would of course be more impressed by 333 than by 35. So, my question is two-fold: specific question - given that not everyone will enter a site from the top page (making counters inaccurate), and given that hits are so bogus anyway (14 graphics on a page equals 15 hits), then how does one reconcile the differences between hits and actual visitors? general question - what is the most accurate way of measuring traffic to a site? Thanks! - mary -- Visit FireGirl's Hot Pepper Palace: http://www.firegirl.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ***************** CONTINUING ***************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jarvis Coffin" Subject: Re: Yahoo and Proctor & Gamble Kevin: Re the Yahoo click-through debacle, two thoughts: 1) Yahoo has opened the Pandora's box for search engines which may be compelled now to offer click-through rates. Fine. The truth is, search engines are in the click-through business. One might hope, therefore, that the quality lines of distinction can start to be made between the Yahoo's - which have dominated the marketplace for this short time - and the thousands of editors, publishers and content providers who represent the real value and future of the Internet. A reminder for those people: you are not in the click-through business. You are in the audience capture business. You hold people's attention. Advertisers pay differently for that; 2) That said and done, Yahoo has made a mistake. Michael McCarthy of SunWorld Online had some excellent comments on the subject at the Ad Age site yesterday. To paraphrase: if publishers are going to be held to click-through rates, then maybe they should have control over the media plan, too. Input regarding product design might be helpful, as well, along with a veto on the advertising creative. More importantly, Michael raises the question of how to charge, differently for click-through rates, say for Coca Cola or the maker of Sparc Laptops. Clearly, response will be different, but, then, so is product value. Hmmm. If his article is still posted, I urge you to check it out. > Best, Jarvis -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Massey Subject: Re: Yahoo and Proctor & Gamble From Kevin Fadden's message: >>Today's "Advertising Age" has a front-page article announcing that >>Procter & Gamble have signed a deal with Yahoo to pay for their >>advertising on a click-through basis rather than cpm. >> >>In my opinion, this may set a trend for the future. P&G has been a >>leading force in setting standards for advertising in the traditional >>media since it spends about $3 billion a year on marketing. >Great! The Big Boys (Jocks) have crashed the party. What's next -- will >they steal all our booze and women? A Web Site selling advertising signs a click-through deal with an advertiser. They are saying "we'll only bill you for the people that respond to your ad." Good marketing/advertising consists of a targeted offer and a targeted "list". The Web Site provides the targeted list. The advertiser provides the offer. If the offer (or the creative) are poor, there is no downfall for the advertiser. The web site is incentivizing the advertiser to throw offal against the wall and see what sticks -- and the Web site will foot the bill for the stuff that doesn't. It seems that the way to make a click-through model work is to provide services for advertisers that will help them create a good offer (and creative). This way, the click-through charge is maximized, the value of the site is kept high in the eyes of it's users, and charges for the service can be profitable. This means that a Web site must get into the marketing/advertising business. Is it easier for a Web business to become an ad agency, or for an ad agency to become a Web business? If in fact the move to Click-through is a trend, then ultimately the ad agencies will rule the Web from an advertising revenue standpoint. To Web businesses selling advertising: find an ad agency partner. Brian Massey Soft Reality, Inc. brian_at_softreality.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Fadden Subject: Off Come the Gloves (was re: Yahoo and Proctor & Gamble) OK, I've had it. There is absolutely *NO JUSTIFICATION* for a click- through only rate. There I said it. Yeah, having to be a nice guy and not offend anybody, I've had to bite my tongue everytime I read about some advertiser wanting to pay only for click-throughs. Well, no more Mr. Nice Guy. You all have pissed off the wrong person. Not only am I gonna fill your next five minutes with this flame (make no mistake -- that's exactly what it is, and I'm not ashamed one bit, nor will I be tomorrow), but I'm going to make this my personal mission at Spring Internet World next week -- to make a big stink out of all of this, get the trade-media to cover it, and make it so that in two months, anybody who brings up a click- through only rate will be laughed at publicly. It's preposterous to think that publishers should have to carry the costs of branding a company and a product, while the advertiser pays only for people who find whatever- the-hell-it-is they are selling remotely interesting. This post was on the Internet-Marketing list (Glenn Fleishman's list) circa 4/24. I am reposting this entire response to bothe Glenn's list and my list, Online-Ads. Both groups are seeing this. I am going to offend a lot of people I am sure. I don't care about them at this point. Those of you who are with me, and especially those of you who will be at Internet World next week (San Jose), let's get together and conspire (do not take me lightly when I use that word) to nip this little click-through only movement in the bud and kill it like the weed that it is. Oh, and one more thing -- you can bet your *bottom dollar* that any posts to Online-Ads on this thread or on the Yahoo-P&G mess will be published in one or more other formats by one or more other sources than InterEdge. I'll let everyone know more as it develops. I will not take any more posts from Glenn's list (or any other list), but I would encourage those of you on Glenn's list to join Online-Ads and direct any related posts there. This is, after all an advertising issue. <<>> >As a direct-response web (DR-Web) marketer I am most happy >about the re-newed focus on the click-thru advertising model. > >The Braintainment Center has been testing its banners for >3 months now. In spite of an amazing 30% click-thru rate >there have been some problems. > >Here are a few things to consider. > >1- The COUNT > >*What & where* is the best way to gain an accurate count? >At the banner host site? What happens when someone >double clicks, as they often do? What about a busy server? >It still costs you a click or two... or three. No. "double-clicks" do not get counted by a server's logs -- they don't even make it that far. What happens when you double click on a banner? The same thing that happens when you only click once. That's the way the server reads it as well. >Perhaps it's better to grab the click-thru coming in. >Maybe Netscape's referer log is the answer. First of all, >non-netscape browsers alude it. So what's a good ratio - >75%? And let the advertiser tell *us* how much he owes us? I do not think so. >Ah, the sacrosanct Access log stats you say! Well now, >what about click-thrus that go back to Home? Or, browsers >who, having bookmarked the special designator URL, return >again & again. Are you gonna pay every time? What are you talking about? You're making stuff up. Televison, print and radio advertising statistics are only so accurate. Same with the Web, and quit trying to make it harder than it needs to be. >And, forbid if someone posts your url (with the Yahoo, >or whomever, designator) to their newsgroup, or to a >bulletin board. Should you pay Yahoo for all those visitors. Again, what are you talking about? >2- FRAMES > >Maybe here's real rationale for frames- you don't lose the >click-thru. This obviously makes it's more attractive for the >ad host site. Frames cause crashes, and not everybody even likes them, much less can access them. At best, framed versions of sites should be optional at this point. >3- COST > >What's fair? Suppose my click-thru rate is 5 times the average >(1-3%)? Can I demand to be charged 5 times less? No way. You need to pay for what you get. Period. >This might overcome one of the major concerns about *who* should >be responsible for poor (pulling) banner copy (& graphics). With a scaled-to- >performance rate the onus is on the advertiser to generate a great ad! > >Feedback? This line of thinking is so one-sided, so narrow minded that it pisses me off so much, I want to adopt a similarly one- sided point of view -- just to be in opposition -- only from my perspective as a publisher. Anyone who shares these opinions on how ad banner rates should be structured, are off your rockers. No, No, I implore you to see the most-obvious-to-everyone-but-you flaws in this rationale. The advertiser should and will pay for everytime your name or your product is seen by a consumer. This is how TV works, this is how radio works, this is how TV works. The Web is going to work the same way, Yahoo aside. They are pussies and I for one intend to bend the ear of every magazine writer in this country, bad-mouthing Yahoo's decision. The only way to get them to reverse their decision, or even to mininmize its impact on the industry is to get a lot of bad press generated surrounding the issue, and to get the rest of us publishers on the Web to rally around the principle of not giving you guys anything -- nothing -- for free. Screw that. Location, Location, Location. We have them, we control them, and you will ultimately pay what we want you to pay if you want ads on our sites. We are the landlords. We set the rent. Yahoo cracked under pressure, and they ignored their responsibility to the Web publishing community in that the ramification of that single contract they just signed is that it's giving all you guys woodies, because you think you will be able to enforce your will on us. That will not be the case. If I have to be the only publisher who stands up to fight this, so be it. Newspaper and magazine writers, I will be at the Spring Internet World next week, and I do want to talk to you all. I'll give you a great interview on the topic of why Yahoo "pussed out". The crusade is on, and I am now on a mission. (email me if you want to set something up, if not, be sure that I will find you in the press room). I've had it with this. It's hard enough to make money in this business without you buzzards trying to get everything you can for free and nickel-and-diming us all to death. The day will come when you'll be wishing you hadn't been so objective to our pricing structures -- cause we'll be in a position to charge you whatever we want. Bold words, I know, but I intend to uphold them. Y'all gonna get up? Folks, I am frustrated. I am not normally so angry, or at least cool down before replying, but I have tried being nice to many of you, including Josh Reynolds, about explaining why your much-desired click-through-only rates are a sham and will never work for anybody except you. You're not being fair, and you're not listening or paying attention to the other side. Now that I *do* have your attention, will you just stop and think for a second, "If I were the publisher, how would I feel about this?" You would think it sucks. Why can't we at least compromise? But, I have intentionally opened a can of worms here. I invite you to flame me. Go for it, give me your best shot(s). But, be warned, I may end up publishing them in some form, and I will certainly flame back. I'll debate this till I'm blue in the face, because I am tired of your collective B/S. Some of you will certainly be offended by my remarks. Others of you, I hope, will appreciate that I am just a passionate young man who senses a struggle coming to a head, and who is going to do everything in his power to make it turn out right. Other publishers who share my views should do the same. We need to get together, so if any of you will be at Internet World, maybe we should schedule a little meeting where we can get some solidarity built up. Yahoo will not be invited. (email me if interested) Fed up, Kevin Fadden ==================================================================== Kevin Fadden, Chairman & CEO kfad_at_interedge.com InterEdge, Inc http://www.interedge.com subscribe to Online Advertising Discussion List send a blank message with subject set to SUBSCRIBE to: online_advertising_at_interedge.com info available at -------------------------------------------------------------------- ***************** PERSONAL INTRODUCTIONS ***************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ***************** REQUESTS FOR INFORMATION ***************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ***************** BANNER SWAP MEET ***************** -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ The Washington, D.C. Motorcade Find stores and restaurants convenient to your route! 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