The Online Advertising Discussion List Archives

Online Advertising Discussion List -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- List Moderator: Supported by: Kevin Fadden InterEdge kfad_at_interedge.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- April 28, 1996 Digest#0029 -------------------------------------------------------------------- ******************************************************************** This week's sponsor: InterEdge For more information on this fertile advertising ground, check out our rate card at: -------------------------------------------------------------------- [THIS SPACE FOR RENT] For information on sponsoring Online-Ads, see: ******************************************************************** In this Digest... THIS SPECIAL EDITION of Online-Ads will be the *last word* on the "flame factor" of my original "Off Come The Gloves" post. Names have been omitted to protect the names of the guilty (laugh). I expect to keep myself under a fair amount of control, but I'm sure there will be some controversial comments -- just let them entertain you, OK? RE: OFF COME THE GLOVES ------- "Clickthrough Issue in posting #25" ~ ANONYMOUS "Hot flame" ~ ANONYMOUS "Chill Out" ~ ANONYMOUS "On Your Click Through Post" ~ ANONYMOUS RE: POLITICAL CORRECTNESS ------- "wait, i thought this was the _advertising_ list" ~ ANONYMOUS "About being PC" ~ ANONYMOUS "On Being Offensive" ~ ANONYMOUS "quick clarification - being "pc" on your PC!" ~ ANONYMOUS "Re: Online-Ads DIGEST #0026" ~ Carolyn Maxine Most ***************** RE: OFF COME THE GLOVES ***************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ANONYMOUS Subject: Clickthrough Issue in posting #25 Kevin: Amen, brother. I "met" you a few weeks back when I first subscribed to your list. Well, although we have not been hit with the click through only demand (probably because these companies are not that inet savvy yet), we are offering a merit based system - that we keep tweaking all the time. Depending upon location, we will put a banner ad (either our main homepage registration center or any of our campus buildings appropriate to the advertisers' theme) for a fee/hits basis - but not clickthroughs to their website or ad content. It is simply if the hit registers on the page where the banner sits. We have wrestled with this issue a bit, knowing our focus is downstream on advertising as yet. But the idea of advertisers dictating terms is horseshit. If attracts a niche audience attractive to advertisers, they should behappy with awareness, and then any hits or click throughs to their sites thatmay occur - even leading to point of sale results. We are in too early a phase to target advertisers and have indepth experience but if we build our site appropriately, logic tells me that my company, as the producer of the content, should have some leverage with advertisers seeking to reach their niche audiences. We will start posting on your listserv once we have some useful stuff to share, but three of us are monitoring it and learning as we go. Stay passionate and angry. Wish we could be in Ca. with you, but our trade show focus is in higher ed. right now, as you can imagine. Once we put up our revamped site, hopefully next week, I will alert you. Our company homepage is tied to our site and launched yesterday, describing us a bit more. Take a look. Love to get into the Top 40 list you mentioned, with one or both! Talk to you soon, Kevin. By the way, we are putting our profile onto Traffic Resource, but have not completed all fields yet - we need data first! Thanks for your help. By the way, we are located in Vienna, Va. outside D.C. Where are you? Anywhere nearby??!! **** >Afraid not -- I'm in Lawrence, KS, where we don't have "professional" burrs up >our butts all the time. Call me "Hick Boy" if it will make you feel better. > >Anyway, to this poster -- I thank you for your support. > >- Kevin Fadden -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ANONYMOUS Subject: Hot flame Flame or no flame it needed to be said and said aggressively. You are absolutely right and I hope someone tries to counter your arugment just so they're forced to think about how completely unfair the whole click through scheme is. Well said. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ANONYMOUS Subject: Chill Out Not a flame, Kevin, and I do appreciate the time you spend on Online Ads. But I don't see a whole lot of good karma, or anything else valuable, in directly addressing so many so rudely. If you are right, then Yahoo! did make a big mistake, one they will come to regret. I myself favor a hybrid model -- something per CPM + something per clickthru -- both rates lower than either alone, but someone recently (I forget who, a few weeks ago?) propounding that hybrid model was taken to task rather roundly. **** >Er, that would have been me. I folded, yes I admit it. Thought I'd go to an >straight CPM model and see what happens. Welp -- two weeks (maybe three) and no >takers. I'm going back to the hybrid model as soon as I send this digest out -- >thanks for reminding me. I'm certainly not going to set the model here all by myself, and I doubt you, or Yahoo!, will either. There are plenty of competitive alternatives out there, and room enough for several models, I suspect. I just think that a firm and spirited, but also polite and professional, response/rebuttal is the way to go. No sense in pissing people off, or insulting them. Don't get mad, get even! **** >Well, that does bring up an important point. Words like "polite" and >"professional" can sometimes (not always) be equated with other words like >"molasses" and "snails". I wanted discussion, I wanted action, I wanted >excitement. I got what I asked for. > >- Kevin Fadden -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ANONYMOUS Subject: On Your Click Through Post Dear Kevin, For the record, I agree with your overall opinion of click through rates. Having said that, you probably hurt your business and definitely your list with the way you presented your argument. You came across like a crying little boy. **** >You ladies can probably relate to this sort of "talking-down". Personally, I >laugh stuff like this off. I only hope that when I'm as old as some of you >people who call me young, I still feel and act as young as I do. There's really >not all that much "dignity" in behaving in a "mature" manner every single >moment of your life. It doesn't make a difference that I'm only 24 now -- I >could just have well have sent the same post at 54 -- because that's me, I'm an >agressive, passionate person -- and I'd better still be that way when I'm 70. >Maybe a permanent teenager. So what? I like your passion. I like your conviction. But there are better, more professional ways to present both. What's the goal for your list? If it's to be the definitive place for online advertising discussions, the moderator has to be taken seriously and be seen as an even-handed rational businessman. When Kurtzman, Morris, Ellsworth, Audette, and Fleischman read your post, do you think they were pumping their fists in agreement or shaking their heads in pity for the damage you were doing to yourself. **** >Well, obviously Fleischman didn't care for it, since that post >never made onto the Internet-Marketing list > >Seriously, though, I'm sure there was a little of both. Each person who reads >anything has a different reaction. Believe it or not, some people liked what I >did -- they agreed -- it needed to be done. Somebody had to do it. I don't wait >around for things to just magically happen. Time solves many a problem. As you mature in your business life, you'll look back on this post, laugh, and wonder how you could have been so stupid. Not a flame, just a comment. Live and learn. **** >I seriously doubt I will ever regret this. > >- Kevin Fadden -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ANONYMOUS Subject: Calm down, Kevin Kevin and everyone, (Brief Introduction) I have been on the internet for about half a year. I've been wanting to build a site for retail sales but want to do it right so I have spent a lot of my time lurking and learning, surfing and studying. The research I have done has taught me a great deal (mostly how much more I need to learn). I have never felt that I had anything to contribute until now. (Constructive contribution, I hope!) There is absolutely nothing wrong with debate, even passionate debate. It is how we overcome the limitations of language and bring people of opposite opinions to the point were they will at least SEE our point of view. It is a fine forum for the exchange of perspectives, and the development of new ideas. However, when you initiate or raise the level of debate by throwing down the gauntlet of an extremely vitriolic flame, not caring or even hoping to offend those in the opposite camp, you risk offending even those who agree with you. You savaged everyone in your flame. You were pissed. So what? Do you not claim to be a professional? Business is about cooperation, not waging war. When you take a war-like position, You will see many of your allies leave you. I agree wiht you, Kevin. Click-through rate is not good business. I agree with you from the position of a potential advertiser. I personally believe that being fair with your associates in business is far more important than nickle-and-diming them. Maybe I'm weird. Calm down. You will find that you will have far more people willing to stand with you that way. **** >And just what governing authority dictates what is professional and >unprofessional? I've always rallied support, in whatever endeavor, by being >outspoken, outlandish and, IMHO, outstanding. Free advertising, baby. And >besides, doesn't anyone else here like spicy food? > >- Kevin Fadden -------------------------------------------------------------------- ***************** RE: POLITICAL CORRECTNESS ***************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ANONYMOUS Subject: wait, i thought this was the _advertising_ list re: political correctness you know, i was just thinking that if you piss off enough people, pretty soon you'll have enough posts to generate a whole flock of mailing lists to moderate. then you'll really rake in the advertising bucks...oh, i guess you already figured that out. **** >Yeah, well sort of. I *do* want to bring this issue to the fore, I *do* think >the time for that is now, not later, and I *did* resort to some questionable >activities to do just that. It was a calculated risk and it paid off -- except >for this PC sub-plot, which if I'm not careful enough with, could ending up >being that case of herpes that never goes away. (joke -- I don't have herpes, I >don't mean to offend anyone who has it - - just going for a cheap laugh, and if >you really can't let it go, just think about Eddie Murphy and luggage. There.) > >- Kevin Fadden -------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: About being PC From: ANONYMOUS I was also disturbed by the comment about women as objects. But I'm so used to this kind of stuff being passed off as "hey - it's just a saying", that I thought it useless to respond. I have worked successfully in "men- dominated" cultures (software engineering and sonar) for twenty years. And while I know first hand that such language is rarely meant to be offensive, it often is. What disturbs me more is you - as moderator (a leadership position) - condoning the language and in essense, accusing anyone one offended as being too sensitive. You may not be aware that this is the way the thoughtless have always promoted bias. "Innocent" comments made about groups of people are evidence of ignorance and insensitivity. Always have been, always will be. If you're going to moderate, then, yes - you should try to be politically correct every waking moment. What is just p.c. to you may be a feeling of welcome and inclusion for someone else. And that feeling of welcome is just what you want - on a listserv _and_ in a work team. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ANONYMOUS Subject: On Being Offensive On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Kevin Fadden -- Moderator wrote: > *** Moderator: I suppose there really is no better time to respond to this, > so here goes: This comment is only "blatantly derogatory" because you take > it that way. This is the lamest excuse for an apology that I have read in a long time! You offended women members of this list and you tell them it is their fault that they were offended. Be an adult and own up to your error. **** (hey, I composed this response the other day right after this post came in -- while the moon was still full or whatever the hell was making me act all crazy) >If I'd have thought it an error I would have owned up to it. And I did >apologize for offending them through the misunderstanding. But, my point was >that it was an over-reaction on her part, and it was not intended to be >offensive -- funny if anything, and if you don't think it's funny then just >don't laugh. Gotta bash me or rub my nose in it or tell me to go sit in the >corner or whatever. Put the young'un in his place, huh? Nothing childish about >taking a strong stand and holding to it even when people would rather you not. >Other people not being happy with what I do or say, doesn't really bother me >anymore -- no matter what, someone has a problem and someone else thinks what I >did was cool. It doesn't matter -- there's always two sides to a story -- can't >please everybody, and I'm no longer trying. At least it will be interesting ;-) > >So, is this mature or immature behavior? Or is it just different than what you >like or are used to? Be careful who you tell to "grow up". I tend to remember >comments like that 8-) > >- Kevin Fadden -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ANONYMOUS Subject: quick clarification - being "pc" on your PC! => Hi, ladies and gents! A quick clarification ... => Max's assertion ... Simply that, folks - she is NOT overreacting - merely stating that she (& I second that!) expect to be treated w/ respect in this & any other forum. That's all. Not a federal case. Just a reminder to THINK about what you're saying. 'Nuf said, OK ... Max wrote Hello GUYS! There are women on board ... While I am sure there was no malicious intent, this is blatantly derogatory to "us women". Just a reminder that we are not your objects to steal, barter or in any other way control ... => The list is cranking now! Yeah ... ttyl, all ... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carolyn Maxine Most Subject: Re: Online-Ads DIGEST #0026 **** >I'm leaving Carolyn's name in here, since her cover's already been blown. >RE: Kevin's response to my comment ... >*** Moderator: I suppose there really is no better time to respond to this, >so here goes: This comment is only "blatantly derogatory" because you take >it that way. The reverse of "The Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder". >While I appreciate your acknowledgement that there was no malicious intent, >I really feel your reaction to this is unnecessary. It was an analogous >statement, and the only manner in which women (and booze) are referred to >as objects is in a grammatical sense, supporting the statement, forming the >sentence. Please, why get so bothered? It was meant to be derogatory only >to Yahoo and Proctor & Gamble (The Big Boys). I apologize for offending any >fine women out there, but I ask you, is it really necessary to be >politically correct every waking moment? -- K.F. *** Kevin, The fact that you have introduced yourself as a young, relatively inexperienced business person and the fact that you are partial to expressing your online opinions passionately, compels me to continue this discussion... I was not really "so bothered" by the initial comment i.e. my acknowledgment of no malicious intent, as much as I felt it was important to bring the matter "into the light" (so to speak). I was, however, extremely bothered by your response. **** >Well, I guess, all I can say to that is, if you weren't that offended, and >already knew I meant nothing by it, why even "bring it to light"? It's an >advertising list, right? Not a women's rights list. It just completely caught >me off-guard, and yes, it did anger me at first. I am the furthest thing from a >chauvinist. I know many women. While I don't like some of them, there are a few >whom I even love (yes, it is true), and many more that I like and/or have a >professional (I HATE that word) relationship with. Sure, I have my problems >getting along with them from time to time, but I certainly view them as equal, >but yet very, very, very different. I suppose I have been somewhat blind to >these issues, as by the time I finished growing up, it wasn't an issue -- my >generation does not, by and large, engage in these matters. So, I thought >nothing of the comment then, and I still think nothing of the comment now. I'm >sorry that it offended you, though. While I generally admire fire, passion and even attitude in people, in this case I feel that your attitude is misinformed, inappropriate and quite frankly more offensive to me than the original comment. Being subjected to harassment in a professional environment is not much fun and almost destroyed my career. Perhaps, this is why I am "sensitive" to this issue and have concerns that respect is demonstrated towards women in the communities that I participate in. **** >Nothing wrong with that, but I particularly feel like the skin was a little too >thin in this case. As I alluded, I may be misinformed, in that I am not aware, >and therefore cannot relate to your problems in this regard. Again, I assert >that I do respect women, and if one thing you want out of Online-Ads is a place >to be respected, etc, etc. I think anyone, regardless of gender or race (or >age) can expect that. I was simply acknowledging my discomfort with a particular statement, which is precisely the responsibility of any individual who feels something inappropriate has been said or done in a professional (or for that matter personal environment). I felt that my concern was then trivialized, which is precisely why political correctness is such a big issue. An individual should feel free to express their concerns in a group of their peers without being subjected to derision and attitude. In other words, dis-respect only becomes an issue when people feel they cannot openly discuss their feelings and expereinces. **** >A very good point, and I did not intend to snuff out your right to do that. In >fact, I didn't. You were allowed to make it -- I allowed myself to respond. I >do agree, in hindsight, that I should not have played it down to being "your" >fault for taking what I said wrong. In hindsight, I should have offered the >above explanation then. Sorry. This is why it is so important for everyone to continue to express their concern, whatever they may be... Seems to me you blasted P&G and Yahoo with a particualr amount of vigor as you were greatly concerned by what they did. max Carolyn Maxine Most tel) 415 965-3890 email) maxmost_at_ix.netcom.com ARQ Business Solutions - Strategic Marketing and Business Development for Interactive Services, Web-Based Ventures & other "Hi-Tech" Enterprises **** >Carolyn (and every other women on the list): > >I don't want to keep on haggling over this issue. I do apologize for offending >you, but I also understand that some of you may not have even been offended in >the first place. Regardless, it was not my intention to offend anyone, so since >that happened, you have my apologies. I will certainly watch what I say and how >I say it from now on. > >Still, I can't help but wonder what kind of response I would have gotten had I >worded the original quote as follows: > >"Great! The Pretty Girls (Cheerleaders) have crashed the party. What's next -- >will they steal all our booze and men?" > >Carolyn, I know you are attending Spring Internet World, and I sincerely hope >that we can meet and exchange peace offerings. We may have been temporarily mad >at each other, but it certainly doesn't have to stay that way. I'll be the guy >walking around with a rose on Wednesday (Tuesday if I can get away from here to >get there by then). > >- Kevin Fadden -------------------------------------------------------------------- OK FOLKS. Show's over. It's done. I got some blood a'boiling -- that's what I wanted to do. YOU ARE ALIVE OUT THERE! Good deal. Let's keep the posts coming re: the click-through thing, and keep your eyes out for an article on this topic in your local paper. I will say that, while I certainly wouldn't want to close the door on people expressing their views to me, I will not pe posting any more on the Politically Correct thread, nor of any "nose-rubbing" of me for the original "Off Come The Gloves" Post. That part of the show is over. NOW that I have your attention, let's concentrate on discussing the issues particularly at hand. Tomorrow's digest will be "back to normal". - Kevin Fadden ==================================================================== Online Advertising is moderated by Kevin Fadden. 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